Satan's schemes

So I had a wonderful chat with a missionary the other day and I lost the transcript.  We had come to a sticking point on Biblical interpretation about the human priesthood.  I was arguing that Jesus replaced the priesthood and he was arguing that He didn't.  He came to the conclusion we needed to pray to God to see who was correct.  I asked him if he believed that Satan can deceive us by answering our prayers or speaking to us.  He said he did believe that.  So I asked him, how can we know who is hearing from God and who is hearing from Satan if we do not match up our messages to God's original word.  To that there was no answer.

I decided to try that idea with a different missionary today and the result was different because these two ladies believe Satan is a spirit not a being and so they can use verse about spirits to believe he will not misled them in prayer.  Pretty genius scheme Satan has going on here.  I'm pretty mad at him today.

These missionaries did not want to hear the deception in detail.  But I have added to the bottom of this post for you guys.
 

Agent [Liza] is ready to assist you.

 

Liza: Hi E!

 

Me: Hello Liza

 

Liza: Welcome 

 

Me: Thankyou

 

Agent [Karly] has joined the chat.

 

Liza: What brings you?

 

Karly: Hi E, we are missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!

 

Me: Well I am concerned about the growing problem of situation ethics in our society and wanted to know what the LDS Church felt about it.

 

Liza: Any particular concern?

 

Me: That believers in Christ are being led into situational ethics instead of relying on the foundation of what He has done.

 

Liza: We do see that today too.

 

Me: For instance one might feel God is permitted he or she to do something forbidden by the scriptures. The new feeling or message is used to justify their rebellion against God's Word.

 

Liza: You seem to be passionate about this topic.

 

Me: Yes I am

 

Liza: We do see that too.

 

Me: Here is my biggest concern...

 

Me: We can pray to God and ask for an answer or for clarity on a issue in our lives and then be answered by Satan instead. Do you think that is possible?

 

Karly: The way that we can know if it is from God or Satan is by how we feel.

 

Karly: If it is from God it will be comfort and peace

 

Karly: If it is from Satan it will be any bad feelings, confusion, and despair

 

Me: I believe Satan can be just as convincing. Was Eve driven by bad feelings confusion or despair?

 

Karly: Have you had any experience with prayers?

 

Me: Yes I pray everyday.

 

Karly: How do you feel when you pray?

 

Me: Like I'm talking to God

 

Liza: Prayer is really important -- it protects us from temptation.

 

Liza: As Jesus Christ said, Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always lest ye enter into temptation; for Satan desireth to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. 

 

Me: I agree. But Satan can imitate the father is it will help his cause. He comes as an angel of light to deceive. He could create false peace in our hearts.

 

Me: If he is easily recognized than his temptation is weak

 

Karly: Here is a scripture for you 

 

Me: I'm not talking about an evil spirit though.

 

Karly: The evil spirit is Satan

 

Me: Satan is not a spirit.

 

Karly: The scriptures give him that name

 

Liza: Whatever is evil comes from him.

 

Me: Where does it say Satan is a spirit? I think that is misled interpretation.  I agree that evil spirits come from him but he is not a spirit.

 

Liza: That scripture is actually taken from the Book of Mormon. Are you familiar with the book?

 

Me: Yes I have read the Book of Mormon

 

Liza: There are many misinterpretations on the Bible. That's why, with two books together, the truth is all the more established.

 

Me: I understand that is your belief. I'm not here to argue that. I do have a concern though if you think Satan is a spirit. The verse from 2 Nephi you quoted speaks of a spirit but you cannot assume it is Satan.

 

Liza: Okay. What is your belief in this? And what is your belief in God?

 

Me: God is the creator of the universe. My belief is that Satan in an angel of rebellion. I think you believe Jesus and Satan were both sons of God. If that is true then Satan is not a spirit unless Jesus is a spirit. If Jesus is spirit than he did not raise bodily from the grave.  (EDITOR'S NOTE: not my best argument)

 

Liza: We believe that we lived with God before we came to earth. We did not have flesh and bones then. We were just spirits. We came here to earth to follow God's plan, and that's how we received bodies. 

 

Me: So Satan never received a body?

 

Liza: It's true that Satan was a fallen angel, and because he did not follow God's Plan, he never received a body.

 

Liza: We can actually share more about this plan --- knowing where we came from, what the purpose in life is, and where we are going afterwards. 

 

Me: I am so sorry. Satan is a genius and I'm seeing that more and more. His deception is very well constructed. I will stick to the truth of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible. I cannot accept any separation from itself. The Bible forbids it. That is God's word to me through His word and in my heart.

 

Liza: Well, if that's what you believe in. We do believe in the Bible. 

 

Liza: It does contain the word of God. But we also believe that He fulfills His promises. One of them being, to visit other sheep which are not of the fold in Jerusalem. 

 

Liza: It's so wonderful to know that there are other people who wrote records about Jesus Christ as well!

 

Me: The Bible assures as it is completed and that any word from prophets that speak of a different message should be avoided. 

 

Me: Galatians 1:8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

Karly: The Book of Mormon doesn't preach anything contrary to that in the Bible

 

Me: Yes it surely does. It even contradicts itself.

 

Karly: The Book of Mormon tells us what we need to go to go back to our heavenly father, the same as the bible

 

Me: Yes there are similarities but there is critical difference that make it a different gospel.

 

Liza: The only way to know whether or not the BOok of Mormon is true is by praying and asking God about it. It's the same way that we need to know if the bible is true.

 

Me: Which brings us back to who answers our prayers 100% of the time. I believe Satan can convince us to go a wrong direction. God will never tell us to do something against himself. So I can not follow a teaching that contradicts His original word.

 

Liza: Okay.

 

Liza: Do you have other questions about our beliefs?

 

Me: Just one last thing. How is praying to God for special revelation on what to do and following something contradictory to God's word not situational ethics? If our answers to prayer are not fact checked by the absolute truth of God's written word we are rationalizing our behavior and decisions.

 

Karly: The safest route is to follow God's commandments Those commandments are our guidelines.

 

Liza: The Lord will never reveal something to us that is contrary to His commandments.

 

Me: The "Lord" has led your prophets to contradict the Book of Mormon, and the Bible. That is why I do not think your prophets are hearing the true Lord.

 

Liza: If that's what you think.

 

Me: Do you want to hear my findings in this? I have many examples

 

Liza: There is really no point in it.  Because no one can convince us to believe otherwise. Neither can we convince anyone to believe in the things that we believe in.

 

Me: I would say the point for me is to help you see the deception. Even if you don't want to hear the many ways your prophets have misled you, I will pray that you discover it someday.

 

Liza: Thank you for caring for us. 

 

Liza: We hope that you continue to browse through the site to learn more about our beliefs.

 

(Chat session has ended)

 

Now for those of you who are interested in the contradictions...

 

LDS teaches that everyone pre-existed.  Bible teaches only Christ pre-existed man.

 

LDS teaches the fall brought death but not a sin nature.  The Bible teaches that God tempts no one so we have a sin nature.

 

LDS  teaches that sin is specific acts we do.  The Bible teaches we are spiritual rebellion above and beyond the specific acts that are done because of this rebellion.

 

LDS teaches we must repent of each individual act and rectify it until we die.  The Bible teaches we must repent of our spiritual rebellion and enter into the battle of overcoming the specific acts that continue in our life. 

 

LDS teaches Christ death brought release from the grave and a future universal resurrection, but we must earn our placement in heaven.  The Bible teaches salvation is not universal but based on individual adoptions as children of God.

 

LDS teaches that we are redeemed from mortal death.  The Bible teaches we are redeemed from spiritual death

 

LDS teaches that the Gospel can only be found in LDS system & doctrine.  The Bible teaches Christ death and resurrection as atonement for our sins no matter your church affiliation.

 

LDS teaches that baptism by a LDS priest is rebirth.  The Bible teaches we are spiritual dead until or spiritual rebirth at adoption.  Baptism is an act of obedience post salvation.

 

LDS teaches that the Mormon Church is the true church lost from the earth until restored by Mr. Smith.  The Bible teaches all born-again Christians are part of God's Church

 

LDS teaches they have a two part human priesthood (Melchizedek and Aaron).  The Bible teaches that Christ brought end to the Aaronic priesthood and is the ONLY Melchizedek priest.

 

LDS teaches we are all literal spirit children of God.  The Bible teaches God adopts us at conversion.

 

LDS teaches exaltation in the kingdom (ability to make spirit babies) requires a temple marriage.  The Bible teaches there is no marriage in heaven and no limit of those entering heaven.

 

LDS teaches heaven is three kingdoms, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial.  The last being for almost everyone because we do not have a sin nature.  The Bible teaches two destinations there is heaven or the lake of fire.

 

LDS teaches hell is an eternal institution where people checkin a check out like jail as they pay their debt to God.  The Bible offers no mention of people escaping the lake of fire

 

LDS teaches God is a resurrected man with a physical body, Jesus is his son with a physical body, and the Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body.  The Bible teaches that God is not a man, that He is not flesh, and that he and the Spirit are one.

 

LDS teaches that God had sex with Marry to give birth to Jesus.  The Bible teaches Mary was with child by no man. 

Now for a few of my favorite ticky tack fouls...

Joe Smith is the head of the church     (D & C 28:2-6)      You know instead of Jesus (Col 1:18)

 

Jesus was born in Jerusalem    (Alma 7:10)    You know instead of Bethlehem (Mt 2:1; 21:17)

 

There were 3 days of darkness during the crucifixion   (Hel 14:20-27)    You know instead of three hours  (Lk 23:44)

 

Church began in 147BC   (Mosiah 18:17)   You know instead of 33 AD (Mt 16:18, Acts 2)

 

Hypothetical Question 'Prophet King' Chat

A representative will be with you shortly.

Agent [Malayna] is ready to assist you.

Malayna: Hello, my name is Malayna.

Malayna: What brings you?

Me: Hello

Me: Can I present a hypothetical question?

Malayna: please do

Me: If I was led by angels to discover an old record of Jesus Christ that was to be a new holy book but the Book of Mormon and other Mormon material didn't ever speak of it. Would you believe my discovery?

Malayna: Are you referring to the book of mormon itself or to another, new scripture?

Me: Hypothetically I find a new scripture not mentioned ever by Joseph Smith. Would you trust it?

Malayna: Not unless it was supported by a prophet. Amos 3:7 "Surely the lord god will do nothing, but He revealeth His secrets to His servants the prophets." There is definitely personal revelation given to each of us, that we could be compelled personally in one direction or another, but something like a whole new scripture, that all should trust and follow, must be introduced by a prophet.

Malayna: So no, I wouldn't trust it, unless proclaimed by a prophet

Me: And what makes one a prophet other than his own word?

Malayna: Joseph Smith had revelations - heavenly messengers, but he wasn't the only one to see these visitors. The apostles around him also saw these visitors

Malayna: Prophets are ordained of God

Me: So hypothetically if me and my 10 best friends all saw the same thing and were led to the same place and found new scriptures we would be valid?

Malayna: If you, 10 friends, and the prophet all saw the same thing, then yes. There was no prophet on the earth at the time of Jospeh Smith. We now have a prophet to receive revelations for us. The watchman on the tower.

Me: Who declared Smith a prophet?

Malayna: God. a 21 year old farm boy could not have written the book of mormon. He absoutely had help. He had a 3rd grade education level. Who could deny he had heavenly help?

Me: Who told us the story that God gave him the help and made him a prophet?

Malayna: I'm sorry, the point of my last post was that there's no way any 21-year old farm boy could have written something as complex as the book of mormon. That alone is evidence that he had heavenly help.

Me: I understand your point and disagree. But who told us the story that God gave him help and made him a prophet?

Malayna: Jospeh Smith himself and all his witnesses. If you have a book of mormon, I would highly recommend reading the testimony of the three witnesses and eight witnesses in the front of the book. That would best answer all your curiosities on the subject.

Me: I have read all of those. So Joseph Smith told us God helped him and he was the prophet. The first prophet of a new "word" was self declared and now only the current prophet can bring forth new? Sounds a little bit like mind control.

Malayna: You say mind control, I say faith. Moroni 10 asks us to decide for ourselves. If you read it sincerely, realistically looking for real answers to real problems, you WILL find that it;s true and we're not just being "controlled".

Me: Faith in the current prophet who is afraid someone out there might go Joseph Smith on the Mormon Church and start a third spin off?

Malayna: No fear. This church will never again leave the earth. It will continue rolling on and growing until the end of the earth. Let me find my scripture reference...

Me: Smith was propelled by the rejection of his vision by the Christian church. Could a Mormon boy be propelled by the Mormon church's rejection of his vision to start something new?

Malayna: Daniel chapter 2, particularly cs. 44-45. There was no prophet on the erarth at the time of joseph smith, and the apostasy of the priesthood was foretold long before it happened. Jospeh Smith brought helped to restore it, and it is now on the earth for good. Hence, our current prophet is our source and our reference. 

Me: Until Joseph Smith's self declarence the christian church marched on to Biblical order waiting for the return of Christ expecting no priesthood because Jesus is called the last high priest in Hebrews. Yet Smith changes it all with his word. Why can't a Mormon boy do the same to the Mormon faith?

Malayna: The Prophet. the other christian churches of the time didn't have a prophet, nor did they claim to. I'm sorry if I sound redundant, but the point is, we already have a prophet on the earth, whose calling is to receive revelation for us. He revealeth His secrets to His servants the prophets. There is already a prophet in place, there is no need of others.

Me: Ok, we are stuck on words. What if a Mormon boy declares himself the king of a lost kingdom of Jesus and is to rule all the prophets. Why couldn't he?  He has 10 witnesses of the angels message that he is the king of the prophets. What is to stop him?

Me: Would the new king of the prophets be rejected by the Mormon Church?

Malayna: Yes, most likely. But can you see why? If we accepted every revelation that came our way, the gospel would be so messed up.

Me: Totally! And rightly so. Just like the Christian Church rejected the new prophet. It's baseless and full of human folly or worse. It must be rejected.

The chat session has ended.

Quickie...'did Mr. Smith say I can believe anything I want?'

A representative will be with you shortly.

Agent [Malayna] is ready to assist you.

Malayna: Hello, my name is Malayna.What brings you?

Me: I have a question

Malayna: Let's hear it. :)

Me: In the pearl of great price articles of faith part 11 it says, 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The chat session has ended.

A series of chats on 'personal relationships with Jesus'

A representative will be with you shortly.

Agent [Andrew] is ready to assist you.

Andrew: Hello, my name is Andrew.

Andrew: What brings you?

Me: Hello. I have a question. Is it possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Andrew: Yes

Me: How?

Andrew: Study Him and follow His example

Me: Can I talk to Him?

Andrew: Not face to face

Me: But can I talk to Him in prayer?

The chat session has ended.

A representative will be with you shortly.

Agent [Elliott] is ready to assist you.

Elliott: Hello, my name is Elliott.

Me: Hello

Elliott: What brings you?

Me: I read your website and have a question. Is it possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Elliott: Yes

Me: How?

Elliott: By reading the scriptures and obeying Him.

Me: Can I talk to Him?

Elliott: Yes

Me: So I can pray to Him and ask Him stuff?

Elliott: Yes

Me: Do you do it?

Elliott: Yes

Me: Can I lose the relationship?

Elliott: Yes

Me: How?

Elliott: By disobeying the commandments

Me: Does He give up on me?

Elliott: No

Me: Then why is our relationship over?

Elliott: What do you mean?

Me: You said I can lose the relationship by disobeying. But if Jesus doesn't give up on me then it's not over.

Elliott: No, so you are the one that decides when its over.

Me: Just by disobeying?

Elliott: Yes\

Me: Then the only person that can stay in a relationship with Jesus is Jesus.

Cause he is the only one who is without sin.

The chat session has ended.

A representative will be with you shortly.

Please continue to hold for the next available agent.

Agent [Emily] is ready to assist you.

Me: Hello

Agent [Rose] has joined the chat.

Rose: Hello!

Me: I have a big question after reading your website.

Rose: okay, well we would love to help you.

Me: Is it possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Rose: Yes. Do you have a belief in Jesus Christ?

Me: Yes I do

Me: How do you have a personal relationship with Him?

Emily: Yes I do, have you heard very much about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Me: Yes I have. What I mean is how do you have a personal relationship not if you do or not.

Emily: Sorry mis-read that...

Me: thats ok:)

Emily: For me I have study scriptures and prayed to learn about Jesus Christ, what do you do to have a relationship  with Jesus Christ?

Me: I was wondering if you talk to Him?

Rose: We pray, which is a way of communicating with Heavenly Father. We don't see him face to face, but we know that He hears us and answers our prayers

Me: So you talk to Jesus in prayer?

Rose: We pray to God, but we always pray in the name of Jesus Christ. So in a sense we communicate with the both of them. We believe they are seperate beings, but united in purpose

Me: You don't talk to Him personally then? Just stuff you want Him to tell God?

Rose: Like i said, we communicate with the both of them. As our savior, Jesus Christ knows us perfectly and we can come to know Him better through study and prayer

Rose: would you like to meet with misisonaries for our church in your area who could help you learn more about developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

Me: I'm already in communication with one, but that's nice thank you. Can I lose the relationship?

Rose: He will never cease to be your Savior, but if you do not keep His commandments, you turn away from Him.

Me: He can't overcome my disobedience?

Rose: What do you mean?

Me: I'm thinking that He is an all powerful savior and if he died for my sins then that means even new ones I haven't done yet. So he should be able to overcome my disobedience and keep us together.

Emily: We must follow Jesus Christ and put him first in our lives, if choose other things we will fall away from Him. He will always forgive us but we responsible for the choices we make in life 

Me: So my salvation really depends on me then?

Emily: We are saved through the grace of God but we are able to access that grace as we keep the commandments of God

Rose: You always have a choice, but salvation wouldn't even be an option without Jesus Christ.

Me: That puts alot of responsibility on us the sinners. Only Jesus kept the commands of God fully. So really Jesus is the only person that is saved?

Rose: We do have a lot of responsibility, but not more than we can handle.

Me: Have you broken a command?

Emily: We actually have to go but we hope you enjoy the website!

Agent [Rose] has left the chat.

The chat session has ended.

A representative will be with you shortly.

Please continue to hold for the next available agent.

We apologize for the delay.

You will be connected to the next available agent.

Agent [Bianca] is ready to assist you.

Bianca: Hello, welcome

Bianca: What brings you here today?

Me: I am completely unsatisfied. It turns out Jesus offers salvation but I can't keep hold of it because of disobedience. And since I make mistakes all the time I am not saved all the time and then...well...Jesus failed me. I'm counting on Him to overcome my sin and apparently He isn't strong enough to do it, or doesn't want to, or something. The Bible says you can't earn salvation but it sure looks like I have to.

Bianca: We must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, get baptized by someone that holds the proper authority and receive the Holy Ghost and then endure to the end in order to be saved.  God is the judge in the end.

Me: Ephesians 4:30 says the Holy Ghost seals me for the day of redemption. Is it not an eternal seal? I can remove it?  

(no reply for 8 minutes)

Me: Did the thief on the cross have it made then? He accepts Jesus as Savior and then immediately dies, no worries.

Bianca: we must do more than just say we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Bianca: you have great questions

Me: So the thief wasn't saved? Is it because he didn't do his mission or get to the right church? He didn't get the chance.

Bianca: I am not the judge of the thief. God is the judge.

Me: You don't have an opinion? 

Bianca: please feel free to continue browsing the website!

The chat session has ended.

Three missionaries in one session on 'Divine Authenticty'

A representative will be with you shortly.

Agent [Cherish] is ready to assist you.

Cherish: Yes?

Cherish: =)

Me: I have been sensing I need to focus more on my personal sanctification.

Cherish: Personal Sanctification? What do you mean, will you share it to me?

Me: Well I have been reading Romans and the apostle Paul speaks of the process of sanctification or us growing to be more like Christ.

Cherish: and then?

Me: It seems like the 'in between' is very important. In between my initial belief and my death.

Cherish: So what belief your talking?Pls. kindly elaborate it=)

Me: I believe that Jesus is God's Son an he died for me and I trust in Him for my forgiveness of sins. And now I am to live like Him and for Him the best I can.

Cherish: That's very wondeful! I testify that God really loves you.

Me: Yes! But here is where the problem begins.

Cherish: And by your deeds, and the desire to be like him. It seems you showed greater love and respect to him, Anyway, what's the problem, your beginning to have?

Me: What does the Book of Mormon add to my personal growth that the Bible does not already contain?

Cherish: This webpage explains more about the nature of God and our potential to become like Him.

Me: So the Bible tells me to be like Jesus and follow Him and the Mormon teachings tell me that I will literally become a god?

Cherish: Yes, you really have the potential to be like him, if you follow him. We are literal sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father but without Jesus Christ Atonement, it's impossible for us to return to our Fathers presence.

Me: Will it repeat itself again somewhere else if I'm a god?

Cherish: What do you mean?

Me: Will my son have to die for people too?

Cherish: I know that I don't know everything but I'm certain of something, bou your question I really don't know if I keep his commandments and endure to the end and will have the chance to become God, Maybe I wil do it also the same way my father did when he send his only begotten son

Me: If it's our possible choice then God chose this plan for us? Kinda cruel don't you think?

Cherish: If he don't do that, what do you think?

Me: If he chose to send His son to die for us, then he could have done it differently.

Cherish: That's the thing I would like you to realize. That the Father even if it will hurt him so much that he gave his only begotten son. It simply shows that he truly loves us

Me: He could have shown us he loved us by killing Satan. Why do Mormon teaching say this and the Bible doesn't?

Cherish: As you can see and noticed, the bible were translated a couple of times and we're still glad that it stood the test of time, but unfortunately there are some errors made by mand of its translations and the Book is Mormon is here to restore the fulness of the gospel

Me: The dead sea scrolls didn't find any errors in the Bible. Yet my newest copy of the Book of Mormon says it's revised. That it had errors

Cherish: Bro. I just want you to pray about it, with no biases and if this Book is true, I've felt that in my life. With real intent and with sincere heart. I know God will answers your prayers

Me: Whoa. My feelings don't make a book true. My brother read the Koran and feels that it is right and true. Does that mean it is?

Cherish: I'm not here to convince you, but what I wanted to do is to really just pray about it.

Cherish: There's nothing wrong in inquiring God, but please ask with a sincere heart and real intent. I'm happy to know that your investigating the Church.

Me: When I prayed about this, it what was revealed to me...that Mr. Smith published the book himself. In it he claimed himself a living prophet that the Bible doesn't mention. In it he claims to have rediscovered a right church.

Me: I could do the same thing. So could you. And the right people could believe it is true and we could start a new religion.

Cherish: Joseph Smith is young when he translated abook, I'm a College graduate, earning some skills in this world, but I cannot make a book similar to the Book of Mormon, Only a genius can do that. I really believe Joseph Smith is inspired to do that

Me: Genuis? Why is he so historically inaccurate then?

Cherish: And he was inspired by God.

Me: So says he. You have to trust him.

Cherish: Please, just ask God. He knows he'll going to answers the inspired questions of your soul.

Me: Facts mean nothing then? God doesn't require us to also use our brains?

Me: You took world history in college right?

Cherish: Yes.. and then?

Me: Do Jews in 600 know Egyptian? Are there elephants in America at the time of the Nephites?

Cherish: I really don't know, but why you want to know about it?

Me: Because The book of mormon claims things that aren't historically accurate. Horses aren't in America until the 16th century

Me: This causes reasonable doubt

Me: Then the book of mormon says one things and Mr. Smith says another in his journal of discourses. Yikes

Cherish: Will you cite an example about it?

Me: Mosaih 15:1; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21 says there is only one God. Smith in Journal of discourses vol 6, page 5 say there are many.

Me: Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11 says God is Spirit while Smith in JOD, vol 6, p3 says God has the form of a man

Me: Jacob 1:15, 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4;Ether 10:5,7 condemn polygamy while Brigham Young in JOD vol 3 p 266 is in favor of it's practice.

Cherish: Are you a member of thus Church?

Me: LDS?

Cherish: YEs?

Me: no

Cherish: Do you thinks it's very important to your salvation? What do you really want to know?

Cherish: =)

Me:  What I really want to know is this. Are you proclaiming the book of mormon as absolute truth and the Bible as errorful based on ignorance, which would be sad. Or are you doing it with knowledge that you are wrong which is immoral?

Cherish: http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1. This is what we believe

Cherish: We really believe the Bible of God, as far it is translated correctly and we also believe that the Book of Mormon is a word of God

Me: What parts of the Bible are translated incorrectly?

Cherish: We can't really be sure because it has been passed on from generation to generation. Some things have been altered. Unlike the book of Mormon that has undergone only one divine step of translation

Me: I would encourage you to check this out then. http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

It explains the 3,913 changes that have been made to the Book of Mormon.  It is these things that cast reasonable doubt. As for the Bible there is nothing to point to.

Me: Compare the dead sea scrolls to a modern English Isaiah 53. 10 letters are spelled different. 4 letters have styllistic changes. 3 letters are added for light'. That is 17 letters of difference over a couple thousand years that make no affect on biblical teaching.

Cherish: We are not allowed to open that link because our system is protected. Anyway, I know that there are a lot of people who are trying so hard to disprove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. But We testify and a lot lot more people are testifying that it is true

Me: I will take that 'error' over 3.913 revisions to actual doctrine over 170 years.

Cherish: Ok. I understand what youre pointing about.. But honestly, have you tried asking our Heavenly Father about it through prayer?

Me: Yes I have. And this is what he has told me.

Me: Does the Bible open with testimonies from eye witnesses and the wild background story of a new prophet and an explanation of what is going to be said before it begins with 'In the beginning.'? No. Why is the book of Mormon inherently defensive from the start?

Me: The book of mormon has the same defensiveness of the Koran. Man needs to defend his claims, God does not. Smith and Mohammed come across insecure. Insecurities are grounded in fear of exposure.

Me: The truth is not in them. My hope rest in Jesus alone and His words alone. Not connected to any other prophet AFTER Him. Jesus is the last high priest.

Cherish: And the Book of Mormon is a word if Christ.

Me: Would the word of Christ be filled with so many historical mistakes?

Cherish: Would we rely on the fallible logic of man then?

Me: Haha no not at all. But it does need to be part of the balance with what we feel. Feelings are a terrible guide alone.

Cherish: So you're saying that you felt that it was true and that you just can't accept it because of the "facts" that you know?

Me: I am saying I know that it is not true because of it's obvious human authorship. I have never felt it was true

Me: If I had felt it was true first and then faced the facts it would be incredibly difficult to see.

Cherish: Have you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover?

Me: Yes I have.

Cherish: and?

Me: I've told you. It's incredibly flawed.

Me: Have you read Romans through Jude cover to cover?

Cherish: How can you be so sure that the book is incorrect and that men around you are right? I'd say that the Book is true and can help you live with our Father again. I suggest that you  pray and then read and ask God if it's true. And I know that if you apply what's written in Moroni 10:4-5 you will know the truth of all things.

Me: Do you think I deny the Christ?

Cherish: Definitely not. Because I think you've spent a lot of time in finding the answers. And I honestly wanna help you.

Me: Lets say horses and elephants were in America and the book of Mormon is the ONLY book that has that right and history has it wrong. Why do the Mormon leaders contradict the book of Mormon in the journals and articles of faith that are also part of the "open cannon" as LDS calls it?  When is Mr. Smith lying in his journal or in his translation of the BOM.

Cherish: I know that the Church is true and the Book of Mormon testifies about Christ. This things are true and I cannot deny it. I really can't deny it.

Me: How can they coexist in truth? Jacob 3:11; 6:10, 2 Nephi 19:16, 28:21-23 speaks of eternal hell. James Talmage in articles of faith p 55 says it is not.

Me: Is Talmage lying?

Agent [Cherish] has left the chat.

Agent [Chris] is ready to assist you.

Me: Hi Chris.  Cherish left me:(

Chris: Sorry her shift was probably over

Me: Oh ok. Well I was asking her at what point is Mr. Smith lying to me. In the book of mormon or in the journal of discourses? Cuz they don't match.

Chris: What do you mean they don't match?

Me: Mosiah 15:1; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21 say there is only one God while Smith says there are many in Journal of discourses, vol 6, p.5

Me: Mormon 9:9,19; Moroni 8:18; Alma 41:8; 3 Nephi 24:6 explain that God is unchanging. but Smith in journal of discourses (vol 6, p 120) says God is increasing in knowledge

Me: Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11 says God is Spirit while Smith in JOD, vol 6, p3 says God has the form of a man

Chris: The scriptures you are mentioning are when a missionary in the book of Mormon is trying  to teach a man that what he believes of God is similair yet different to what he believes

Me: How can his beliefs be different at different times to different people?

Chris: No the guy who he was talking do didn't understand who God was and he was trying to help him understand

Me: Are you reading what I am reading? In Mormon 9:9 the writer is asking does God change? The answer is a rhetorical no. Yet Smith claims God is getting wiser in his journal. When is he lying?

Chris: I was talking about the ALma scriptures

Me: Ok well what about the Mormon and Moroni scriptures? Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Me: Isn't increasing knowledge a change?

Chris: The only way God grows is through his children reaching heaven

Me: So He changes?

Chris: Only gets more glorified by having more and more of his children return back to His presence

Me: Does that increase His knowledge?

Me: Why did Brigham Young say polygamy was ok when the Book of Mormon says it is not?

Chris: The book of Mormon says it is ok if God commands it,just like he did for abraham and moses

Me: Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Me: Riplakish in Ether 10 was called one who did not do right because of his polygamy

Chris: God commands it sometimes and sometimes He doesn't when he doesn't it is wrong but when he does it ok, jsut like in the instacne of abraham, issac, aand Jacob

Me: Where does it say he commanded it?

Chris: In Book of Mormon or the Bible?

Me: Book of Mormon. I know it's not in the Bible. Abraham's taking of Hagar was against God's plan. Isaac only had one wife. And Jacob isn't a righteous God following man until after his weddings.

Chris: jacob 2:28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things

Me: Explain to me where this mentions multiple wives are ok if I command it?

Chris: verse 30

Me: Explain further I don't see it.

Chris: if I will raise up seed to me then I will command my people

Me: Raise up seed is multiple wives?

Chris: read jacob ch 2 and it will make sense http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2

Me: Can't I raise up seed with one?

Chris: Did you read the Chapter?

Me: All I'm reading in this chapter is that polygamy is wrong but marriage is good and God wants us to be married or atleast permits it. You really gotta stretch to make that means 'special permissions.'

Chris: Polygamy is wrong unless God commands it to raise up see unto himself

Me: Can't that be done with one wife? Why would we assume more than one?

Chris: Yea and most of the time it is unless God commands it! Just like in the Old testament murder was wrong unless God commanded Joshua to wipe out the heathen nations

Me: I don't think this verse says that. The context is clearly against it. And War isn't murder but I see your point. So then it's up to the man's feeling like God wants Him to have another wife?

Chris: Well your wrong about that verse cause that is what it means, God has in times of old commanded Polygamy with Jacob Abraham and Issac, and He commanded again with Joseph Smith

Me: Whoa. My interpretation based on the passages context is wrong? And God didn't command those guys to do that. And again Isaac only had the one wife.

Chris: There would be no bible, there would be no would be no 12 tribes of isreal had not Jacob been Polygamous

Me: Rachel might have had more children if they had been patient. If God just said he didn't like polygamy in the passage and then says he permits raising of seed, which we agree can be done with one wife, why do we assume He means otherwise?

Chris: When God commands we obey! Adam had no idea why he was to offer up the firstlings of his flocks but he did it anyway and after many days an angel of the Lord came to him and asked Why he ws offering sacrifice and Adam said he knew not saved the Lord commanded me, and then the Angel told him why. So it is our job to obey the Lord even when we don't understand why and then in His due time He will make it known to us WHY

Me: Hold on. Of course we obey God. That isn't the question. The question is why is that verse used to say what it doesn't say? Again if I feel God tells me to marry a second girl I can do it? Even without convincing scriptural evidence?

Chris: No God commands the prophet and then we obey the prophet

Me: What if I am a prophet?

Chris: Your not so don't worry about it

Me: How do you know?

Chris: Cause your name is not Thomas S Monson

Me: Who originally claimed that he is the prophet?  Himself or the Mormon apostles?

Agent [Chris] has left the chat.

Agent [Lance] has entered the chat

Lance: Hello welcome

Me: Thank you

Lance: I'm Lance- how are you?

Me: Good. Can the prophet speak a word from God that is opposite the scriptures?

Lance: Well that depends sometimes modern revealtion is different that what God has aked us to do in the past yes. Take Jesus Christ for example He brought the higher law and the law of Moses wasn't practiced anymore

Me: See I view that as a misinterpretation of the old law. Jesus took away the curses of the law but not the blessings for obedience.

Lance: The way I understand it doctrine and principles stay the same but the application of these doctrines and prinicples vary depending on what God current;y wants us to do- this is where prophets can clarify and teach us

Me: Jesus followed the law right?

Lance: Well I believe that Christ instituted the Higher law from God so yes He followed that law yes

Me: He didn't fulfill the law of Moses perfectly?

Lance: The law was fulfilled when Christ brought the new law, meaning it was completed. This is how I understand matt 5:17-20. Christs law was above that of the scribes and Pharisess

Me: Do you believe in absolute truth?

Lance: I believe there are absolute truths yes I know very few of them- one would be that Jesus Christ is my savior and redemeer

Lance: Do you believe in absolute truth?

Me: A bible that says one thing, a book of mormon that adds and another and changes things, and a prophet who can say something different seems like Mormonism is bent towards rationalism.

Me: I believe the Bible is absolute and complete and the Holy Spirit will not speak opposite of it into any believers heart, but that variation come from Satan.

Lance: Well you can call it what you will but it is bent towards doing what God wants us to do and reciving the happiness that He has promised I have tested it myself by acting on it - I know that this is the result of our faith (John 7:17)

Me: Happiness is not a fruit of the Spirit. It is found in fun, safety, and pleasure. Self serving things.

Lance: I'm not going to argue the defintion of words with you Al. But I appricate that you have such zeal for the word of God!

Me: If doctrines can change by word of prophets to go against Scripture then I believe it comes from the darkness of mens hearts. A house divide against itself cannot stand. Jesus doesn't change.

Lance: I agree doctrine and principles stay the same but the application of these doctrines and prinicples vary depending on what God currently wants us to do- this is where prophets can clarify and teach us as we learn from the Bible

Me: And rationalize

Me: If their interpretation can vary from what it said in scripture they can rationalize new behavior and sin by saying it’s a word from the LORD.

Agent [Lance] has left the chat.

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